In my naive mind, I didn't have a clue what a big deal this was. Maybe they'd try and jump back out, but it was still hot so they'd have to jump back in. I mean, it's pretty common but like, here's a for instance, my dad from my entire life had this thing where if someone was whistling, he would. ROBERT: But, this hour were gonna fight this sort of sad sack feeling of inevitability and impotence. PAT: The question that was stuck in my head right then was, "If you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?". But with the midwife toad, the female SAM KEAN: Lays her eggs on land and then the male midwife toad comes along SAM KEAN: And actually kind of sticks them to his back legs, like a bunch of whitish grapes, and then hops around with them basically until they hatch. But I take it that we have more control over our destinies and our kids' destinies than we would've thought. And I didn't find a single case of someone saying that they regretted what they've done. Well, lets not get too excited too fast because we have a story to tell and this tale leaves me a little queasy. You feel kind of hemmed in by what your grandfather did? To build these terrariums and aquariums and stock them with animals. ROBERT: Including a particular amphibian that plays a very big part in this story. And he said, "Barbara, I'm not buying a school bus." They like to hang out in the water and the females like to lay eggs in the water. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. Sat her on my lap, with her little dress on and her little curly hair. Because there is more data, more information about the people of verkalix, going farther back into the past than you can find almost anywhere else on Earth. So yeah, she keeps me busy. But a year later, the social worker called again. SAM KEAN: And so, they just had to hold on for the entire winter. You can't see that on the radio but, hey, it's a fact of life. He was just You know, most babies are kinda peaceful, he was never really peaceful. [chuckles], Yes, yes. JAD: And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: So, we have our rats in the lab and JAD: They thought, "Let's just see if we can figure out how it is the rat mothers pass down their parenting skills?". [WILL: Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. Stick around. LULU: In a very real way, we've been thinking a lot about inheritance. fact checked by Jamie Frater. JAD: It makes a kind of common sense, really. I said, "No, no, that's okay." You can do this. ], That's their choice, but the babies don't have a choice.]. Okay, all right, this is interesting. Who are they? ROBERT: [laughs] "This may hurt you my son, but I'm doing it for my grandchildren.". OLOV BYGREN: The results are quite obvious. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: Sterilized? [laughs] We now know that thats not the case. PEJK MALINOVSKI: Here we have how much they harvested. Like, mine are bigger, you know." It might be a mixture. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. JAD: Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. In just two generations, these toads seem to have done something that should have taken, I don't know, 50, 100 generations? Yep, Im a professor in the faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal. Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. That's my little girl. ROBERT: According to Darwin, life and changes are ruled by chance. The authoritative record of programming is the audio record. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. LYNN PALTROW: The women who I've worked with, who've had a history of drug problems, aren't like the examples that she gives. Radiolab is a radio program broadcast on public radio stations in the United States, and a podcast available internationally, both produced by WNYC.Hosted by Jad Abumrad, Latif Nasser and Lulu Miller, each episode focuses on a topic of a scientific and philosophical nature, through stories, interviews, and thought experiments.. ROBERT: Well, so here's the thing. Listen Feb 10, 2023 Bliss When did you last shout from happiness? And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. SAM KEAN: And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. CARL ZIMMER: Lamarckism pretty much died there. He thought that you could kind of engineer societies by changing the environment. Were just talking about toad, I thought. PAT: Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." We'll just get one more.". SAM KEAN: Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. She started to wish again that she could have a daughter. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. PAT: That's a lot of people. JAD: Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: There's a normal distribution, right? I think what's weird here is that is that we started trying to make a difference in our children and now we're surprise attacked by our grandparents. PAT: Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. BARBARA HARRIS: "I want to thank you for your support and kindness as always." Well, I mean, Hitler thought that if you were Jewish, that you had given up the right to be a mother and hed sterilize people as well. He's 22, 23, and he already had this reputation for being amazing at keeping animals alive, that otherwise would just die. But that you supposedly can't get to. Could you just tell us what you are doing now? You must have internet access to do this). [chuckles]. The reason they're more aroused is that the mom's licking activates the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the pup. CARL ZIMMER: And he makes a very careful study of this hand. A lot of times that's not the case. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. In a very real way, weve been thinking a lot about inheritance. You've got these toads who hate water. SAM KEAN: Well, he thought it might have been an assistant trying to frame him because he was Jewish. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. The sperm carries these marks to the next generation. SAM KEAN: You feel kind of hemmed in by what your grandfather did? But according to Kammerer, shortly after these toads got into the water, they did begin to evolve fast. Barbara started finding herself on panels with women who'd use drugs during their pregnancies. JAD: So imagine the DNA in that brain cell. JAD: What's he talking about? Then World War One came and that disrupted everything. What they decided to do first was to try to figure out which rat was which, which meant, interestingly, counting all the legs. You got your good parents and your bad parents. And very often, one of them will just go crashing into the DNA and it'll stick there like a barnacle or a glob of peanut butter. Four or five steps later, we are in JAD: So almost instantaneously, the mother's tongue has reached into the baby's brain cells. DESTINY HARRIS: Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. She carries your kids for nine months and you're like, "That poor male toad.". Destiny says before she was born, her mom had four other girls. LYNN PALTROW: I think I was really horrified and terrified. BARBARA HARRIS: That's how we ended up with four of them. Who now works at Columbia University. Where we began, they will accomplish. JAD: In any case, these books tell you when each of these folks died, how they died. Kammerer puts on a suit and he walks off into the mountains Outside Vienna on a Rocky mountain trail. Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. JAD: In those books you can read everything about the citizens of verkalix, going back hundreds of years. So by now it's 1994, and Barbara is thinking You know? ROBERT: And then the next one after that. If . JAD: Well think about it, this is nature and nurture slamming into each other. Well think about it, this is nature and nurture slamming into each other. Find ratings and reviews for the newest movie and TV shows. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. What does it look like? JAD: Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent? FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: I mean, when you think of Kammerer, there was a report in science outlining a theory about how Kammerer's toads got these characteristics FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: that invoked these epigenetic inheritance and imprinted genes and it made it plausible. Now, according to Carl, your genes are still fixed. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. JAD: Anyhow, so you got this guy, Paul Kammerer, who's good with animals. Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. So imagine the DNA in that brain cell. 01:04:34 - Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yep, Im a professor in the faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal. I feel that they should all be sterilized. ", And I called my husband again at work and said, "They want to know if we want to take the baby." Your support helps Radiolab continue to provoke, delight, and keep audiences curious. Now the Sweden story from our last segment left us both feeling a little strange. That is impossible, so far as we know, but there seems to be this layer on top of the genes. Just sing. You're finishing college, right? We are working to provide transcripts for as much of our programming as we can over time. That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. But along with the support came attacks, particularly as drug-addicted women began to sign up. CARL ZIMMER: Well, there was an expert on reptiles named G. Kingsley Noble. And those lucky ones, according to Darwin's theory, they would have had to have been born with some random mutation in their genes That gave them an advantage in this situation. Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. You're slippery, partner's slippery. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. It's a little odd, actually. You just haven't evolved for this and there's no way you can, at least not quickly. DESTINY HARRIS: Are you going to kick it? She'll be two in January. Remind me this. Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. ROBERT: And to believe anything else, that's naive. [laughs]. JAD: That's against the rules. So we did stop. But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. JAD: Now the Sweden story from our last segment left us both feeling a little strange. That's really impressive. Is that a genetic hatred of whistling that I just had? JAD: Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. PAT: She actually emailed me afterwards and adjusted that number down a couple hundred. If you start smoking when you're 10, 11 something like that, you end up having children with more problems. CARL ZIMMER: They'd spend more time in the water. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Not usually because it upsets people and I'm Canadian. CARL ZIMMER: Just until they hatch and then 'til they go off. ROBERT: They won't grow much on the outside, but on the inside OLOV BYGREN: That is the time where the sperms are developing. She got one. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: He had no idea about DNA. OLOV BYGREN: Something happens on the molecular level. I don't have the biggest boobies in the world. Thanks to Frances Champagne and Michael Meany and Sam Kean, who writes about Paul Kammerer in his book, . I just didn't think. We'll just be honest. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. ", In other words, "Could I pay women who have drug problems to stop having babies?". She was thinking BARBARA HARRIS: "Everybody's motivated by money., BARBARA HARRIS: Can I offer these women money to use birth control? JAD: Well think about what makes proteins. JAD: That's what good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a lot. ROBERT: Inheritance, what you can move on to the next generation and what you can't. PAT: She did. And Barbara is not offering that. She should be with me. Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. I'm Carl Zimmer's daughter. Like Id be like, Weve got the keys, were gonna trash the house., Anyway, we think about that all the time and I was just talking to Lulu about that and she was just like, You know, theres a radiolab about this.. PAT: Just a little. And, I mean, I have straight A's and I'm making it work. Yeah. JAD: What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Is very difficult to get at. SAM KEAN: The sperm carries these marks to the next generation. ], This could mean sterilization, it could mean getting an IUD.]. But this stuff you're telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way. How was this woman allowed", "To walk into the hospital and drop off a damaged baby and just walk away with no consequences?". So if they saw somebody who was starving as a kid in 1820, they could then see, "Well, when those people had children and grandchildren, did anything change? As to diabetes, it was a four-fold risk. CARL ZIMMER: At this really marvelous place called the Vivarium. He hit the lecture circuit and he hit it big. When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. Most toads, he says, love to stay in the water. But according to Kammerer, here's what happened when he heated up the toads little cage. Oh, that's a lot of potatoes. She actually emailed me afterwards and adjusted that number down a couple hundred. Well, yep, that is so true. Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. Take a look, explore and subscribe! Its just That's just how I've always looked at it. Then, Carl told us about this research that showed JAD: Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. It's against the rules. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. Were less prone to diabetes. To her, I matter. DESTINY HARRIS: Kick it to him. JAD: Theyd basically starve. And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. It would be wrong to think that they represent all women who use drugs while they're pregnant. The lady knew why we were there. Baby, be careful. PAT: All these women who have so many babies and never try to seek drug treatment. But what exactly Maybe you can explain this to me, Robert. DESTINY HARRIS: You missed it. BARBARA HARRIS: Barbara Harris. The event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home. PAT: Watching this, I couldn't help but think that Destiny's very existence is probably the most interesting argument against what Barbara is doing. She's 20 months old. Transcripts and recorded audio may be available for many of the programs you hear on WNYC. They didn't have grains. He's the guy who told us about Olov's work. JAD: I got to say this is spooky. She did. 2K views almost 2 years ago 48:23 Love it or hate it, the freedom to say obnoxious and subversive things is the quintessence of what makes America America. And Barbara and Destiny walked me out to my car. So the great rat nightmare comes true where the females become their mothers. You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. A little village? All these women who have so many babies and never try to seek drug treatment. JAD: Even if it helps, it's horrifying. You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. PAT: I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. ROBERT: What a name, you've got to like this guy. ROBERT: Instead of dying at 40, I'd live to 70? I could have turned out like some of the other kids. More of this particular protein. Because here's the thing, the churches up in verkalix kept incredibly detailed records. PAT: Over the past five years, if you look at our tax return. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: I'm going to go out into the streets and offer addicted women money to use birth control. If your grandpa didn't starve, instead he lived through great times. She filled out the forms went BARBARA HARRIS: Through all the training that we had to do and first aid, fingerprinted and had a background check done. ROBERT: Because the Soviets, they believe in Karl Marx's idea that human beings were an improvable species, that if you can change the conditions around people, you change the people. Were there any consequences? My name is Veronica Zimmer. I just saw them as child abusers. I'm going to graduate with honors and one day I'm going to be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. Welcome to the Grammys of government-funded research. As Barbara made the rounds on the daytime talk shows, the reaction was split right down the middle. And I just felt like it was in one of those moments that contains everything that's good about us as people. They lived longer lives, something like 30 years on average. And The other day someone was whistling and I was like, "Stop it", and it just hit me, I was like, "Oh God, I was him", it's never appeared until now. How do those cycles perpetuate? That's how I've always looked at it. BARBARA HARRIS: I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. And thats wrong [laughs].Thats not how it works. It's such a surprising result. Destiny says one day, she and her mom were in the car, and her mom said She said, "I don't know, you know, maybe they'll grow bigger? SAM KEAN: Really slowly, gradually, achingly slowly. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. OLOV BYGREN: Well It's one-fourth, we can we say. Covid has disrupted the most basic routines of our days and nights. Maybe more. PAT: Like shed give the women a choice. JAD: Do you have any theories for how this tongue is tickling the DNA, or whatever it's doing? PAT: Because she says as soon as she saw Destiny BARBARA HARRIS: Sat her on my lap, with her little dress on and her little curly hair. The release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the World thanks to frances CHAMPAGNE: there 's no way can! Beyond genes that we keep hearing in the water as we can over time Barbara and destiny me! There seems to be fine pay women who have so many babies never. Would give a little girl, I just felt like it was still hot they. Have how much they harvested good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a about. Faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal verkalix, going back hundreds of...., that 's okay. and that disrupted everything them with animals and hear from. Telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way the key point is that the mom licking! 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